Creation Vs Evolution

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

Endless Nothing wrote:

Aichu wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

Aichu wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

Aichu wrote: But that's the thing- our destinies are predetermined. Not because God is a bastard. But think about it- if our destinies weren't predetermined, that means we could find God on our own. But we cannot. No more than candy in a jar can will a child to pick it. God doesn't sit back and hope that another one will join his salvation.

I do not, however, believe that babies and young infants are held accountable before God. For that reason, I also believe that when God takes up the life of a young child, it is an act of mercy- maybe that person would have grown up unsaved. I do not believe the infant firstborn that died in egypt went to hell. But then again, that's up to God.

So no one goes to hell in this theory of yours? Or if they do then god hated them and wanted them to. Otherwise he would have 'predetermined' them to be good in life and go to heaven.

Without God's grace, we would all go to Hell.

No, he doesn't hate anyone. God loves everyone. But we are also rebels, and have fallen from him. How does he decide? I don't know.

Then our ability to make choices is proof enough that our lives are not pre-determined. God gave us choice because he wanted us to truly love him. If he pre-determined our entire existance than we would be forced to choose him and thus we couldn't possibly truly love him because we had no other choice. Some people just make the wrong choice.

But nothing happens apart from God willing it. We can just do something without God willing it to happen. So yes, technically we can make choices, but God already knows exactly what we're going to do.

And don't give me any of this 'master of our own fate' business. Because it's a bunch of nonsense.

No no, i know god knows our character and knows what choices we will make, but the point i was making was that he does not make the choice for us. Predetermineing our existance would be god making all of our choices for us before we were even created.

But it all comes down to God's plan. And I can assure you he didn't make his plan around what he knew we would do. We're just along for the ride. And what's the point of this ride? So we can see God's glory.

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

The beginning and end of man i will agree is predetermined by god, but i still firmly believe that the predertiming of every single being that comes into existance is unecessary for His 'plan' to work and thus he does not determine them.

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Deja vue >_> We just had this argument.

I would Join in on this but i think this is only for the smart people....

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Of course He did not decieve, but it is likely that we as imperfect humans simply misunderstood. God told the Isrealites how long to wait and how long to march based on the time measurements they as humans had decided to set in place. And i can agree that it is possible or it to have been 6 human days. By why does it have to?

I heard somewhere God Plans for your birth before you are in the womb by something like two years. If someone finds a nifty verse backing that up, neato.

Endless Nothing wrote:The beginning and end of man i will agree is predetermined by god, but i still firmly believe that the predertiming of every single being that comes into existance is unecessary for His 'plan' to work and thus he does not determine them.

But his plan is very specific, not just a generalization. When Jesus died on the cross, he was covering all the sins of those brother and sisters whom God had chosen.

seshimazi wrote:I would Join in on this but i think this is only for the smart people....

Cool you and I can stick together then C:

Aichu wrote:

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Deja vue >_> We just had this argument.

It was never resolved and Q wanted to go back to it.

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Of course He did not decieve, but it is likely that we as imperfect humans simply misunderstood. God told the Isreaites how long to wait and how long to march based on the time measurements they had decided to set in place. And i can agree that it is possible or it to have been 6 human days. By why does it have to?

It has to because he said it was. If it's not then he did, indeed, decieve them. For as I said, he would know that we would misunderstand it. I mean this is the Same God that got mad at the Isrealites for one of them stealing plunder and forcing them to lose tons of lives in Battle. Does that God sound like the Kind of God who would mislead us with a phrase like that, knowing we, as imperfect humans would be mislead.

How about this. Would God want us, as Christians, to misinform people in the same way? If we said something and we knew someone else would take it the wrong way, would he want us to say it like that, or say it in a way that people could understand. Especially something as eternal and as important as the creation of Earth.

Aichu wrote:

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Deja vue >_> We just had this argument.

I wasn't here for it.

Aichu wrote:

seshimazi wrote:I would Join in on this but i think this is only for the smart people....

Cool you and I can stick together then C:

good

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Of course He did not decieve, but it is likely that we as imperfect humans simply misunderstood. God told the Isreaites how long to wait and how long to march based on the time measurements they had decided to set in place. And i can agree that it is possible or it to have been 6 human days. By why does it have to?

It has to because he said it was. If it's not then he did, indeed, decieve them. For as I said, he would know that we would misunderstand it. I mean this is the Same God that got mad at the Isrealites for one of them stealing plunder and forcing them to lose tons of lives in Battle. Does that God sound like the Kind of God who would mislead us with a phrase like that, knowing we, as imperfect humans would be mislead.

How about this. Would God want us, as Christians, to misinform people in the same way? If we said something and we knew someone else would take it the wrong way, would he want us to say it like that, or say it in a way that people could understand. Especially something as eternal and as important as the creation of Earth.

Couldn't it also be possible that it was understood back when the bible was originally produced that the 6 days were metaphorical and actually did mean several thousands of years and that understanding was merely lost to time due to errors in translations or something of that sort?

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:

Endless Nothing wrote:

quater wrote:6 24 hour periods mr. Endless.

And why do the days have to be 24 hour periods?
I could even argue that Gods hour differs from mans.
So 24 of gods hours could work for me as well.

When God told the Isrealites to march around Jericho for several days, did he mean God days? No. When God told The Isrealites to stay in the desert for 40 years, did he mean 40 God years? No. And why would God purposely decieve people for Thousands of years? He knew people were going to take him literally at his word that he meant 6 Human days. So wouldn't he have mentioned that his days were different then ours if he meant that they were? Besides. You seem like a Man who is a God Fearing brother, can you tell me why God Couldn't create the Earth in 6 Human days, if you agree we have a God?

Of course He did not decieve, but it is likely that we as imperfect humans simply misunderstood. God told the Isreaites how long to wait and how long to march based on the time measurements they had decided to set in place. And i can agree that it is possible or it to have been 6 human days. By why does it have to?

It has to because he said it was. If it's not then he did, indeed, decieve them. For as I said, he would know that we would misunderstand it. I mean this is the Same God that got mad at the Isrealites for one of them stealing plunder and forcing them to lose tons of lives in Battle. Does that God sound like the Kind of God who would mislead us with a phrase like that, knowing we, as imperfect humans would be mislead.

How about this. Would God want us, as Christians, to misinform people in the same way? If we said something and we knew someone else would take it the wrong way, would he want us to say it like that, or say it in a way that people could understand. Especially something as eternal and as important as the creation of Earth.

Couldn't it also be possible that it was understood back when the bible was originally produced that the 6 days were metaphorical and actually did mean several thousands of years and that understanding was merely lost to time due to errors in translations or something of that sort?

The way the Biblical Scrolls are written, makes them infallible. Each scroll, is exactly like the scroll before it. If a scroll of the Bible, say Moses's writings, one of which being Genesis, when they were copied had even an ink smudge in the wrong spot, the papyrus was burned. Since papyrus was very rare, a few errors to many could have caused a scribe to lose their job (And jobs weren't easy to find back then, since they stayed in families, meaning they easily could have lost their livelihood). So their lives basically depended on keeping the Biblical Scrolls Exact, from scroll to scroll. And we have found many scrolls, some of the very earliest ones. And they all corroborate the same message. 6 days.

Besides, why would God say 6 Days? He could say in 6 segments I made the Earth, and it spanned a very long time range. The first segment I made Light!

It would be less deceitful that way.

Very good point Q.
But that still does not disprove that the 6 days may have been symbolic or metaphorical. The vast majority of things said in the bible are symbolic of something or are a metaphor, why not the 6 days?

Endless Nothing wrote:Very good point Q.
But that still does not disprove that the 6 days may have been symbolic or metaphorical. The vast majority of things said in the bible are symbolic of something or are a metaphor, why not the 6 days?

Because no other lapse of time has been proven to be metaphorical or symbolic. That post was reffering to the mistranslation deal since I wanted to make sure we set that aside early.

When God Said he would rise in 3 days. He rose 3 days later. Not 3 metaphorical days. Not 3 symbolic days. When they marched around Jericho, it was not symoblic or metaphorical. When he refers to the end times Tribulation, call me crazy but I truely believe it's gonna be 7 or so years, not 7 or so metaphorical years.

Over and over God uses metaphors, sure. But, when he names things specifically, such as prophecies, they happen exactly as he says. When they drove nails into Jesus hand at his death, there was nails were literally there. Just as the Bible predicted they would be. When Jesus said the temple would come down and not one brick would stand on another, it did, and the bricks were seperated because the Gold of the Temple had fell between these bricks so they had to literally take it apart brick by brick to retrieve the Gold.

If God was so specific when naming these exact measurements, why would he be vague on something like this?

Because he knew that one day people would argue about it and it would amuse him. ^_^

You do have pretty flawless logic Q i'll have to give you this one.
That is not to say though that it is impossible for evolution to have been part of His plan. Especially since Humans were immortal for no telling how long. So there could have been only Adam for several thousand years, then Eve for another several thousand, all the while evolution among the other species occurs.

I would agree with you if you were sayind Devolution occured. Afterall, we have gone from living hundreds of years to a pittance 120 years max.

But not Evolution, and not amongst species to create us.

And thank you Endless, I do try.

No im not saying man evolved from beast. We are perfect and require no evolution because we were made in His image. The other species, however, were not, so it is possible that they were imperfect and required some form of evolution to survive.


Also here is a fun little tid bit i was asked once apon a time.

If God is all-powerful, can He create a boulder that even He can not lift?


I came up with an answer but im curious to see what you all come up with.

We had that "argument" sorta, on a thread.

My answer was, God would create said rock, then slice it to a mazilion pieces, then shoot it with a cannon.

Haha, how....original.

Goofy question

Gets goofy answer ^_^

Aichu wrote:

amaterasu wrote:

Aichu wrote:But babies sometimes do die hours after they are born.

They are human, and humans cannot be neutral- there is only heaven and hell.

How God judges this, I really can't say.

The reason why we clash, ama, is because you see the world in shades of grey while I see things as black and white...

i'm taking this debate away from your novella thread aichu!!


ok, humans are neutral, which is why we can be forgiven

if we were positive or negative, we would be at birth, and thus people's destiny to heaven or hell would be predetermined, and God would be a bastard

but thats not the case.

a baby can't be holy or sinful, since it didn't do anything

yes babies have died at birth, but babies have also grown into adults that lived for a hundred years.

But that's the thing- our destinies are predetermined. Not because God is a bastard. But think about it- if our destinies weren't predetermined, that means we could find God on our own. But we cannot. No more than candy in a jar can will a child to pick it. God doesn't sit back and hope that another one will join his salvation.

I do not, however, believe that babies and young infants are held accountable before God. For that reason, I also believe that when God takes up the life of a young child, it is an act of mercy- maybe that person would have grown up unsaved. I do not believe the infant firstborn that died in egypt went to hell. But then again, that's up to God.

Then don't call yourself a christian Aichu

WHAT DO YOU THINK JESUS DID?

He came down so that EVERYONE could be saved through him, they only needed to confess with their mouths and believe in their hearts that Jesus died on the cross for everyone's sins and that HE IS THE ONLY WAY to heaven.